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ADDITIONAL RULES, TO INCLUDE MARKETPLACE/CLASSIFIED AD RULES:

1. Profile Requirements

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We ask that you list your item on just one forum, so there is not confusion and/or issues with an item being sold on another forum when someone attempts to purchase it here. If you do list and sell on another forum, it is your responsibility to immediately update your ad on our forum…if you do not, your privilege to post in the Marketplace and even the forum itself may be suspended, at least temporarily.

NOTE REGARDING 1911 PISTOLS PURCHASED FROM CMP:
If you are considering selling a 1911/1911A1 you acquired directly from CMP, you MUST obtain approval from CMP1911ADMIN before listing it on the forum as purchasers of these weapons are not allowed to resell them as a condition of the purchase. You may reach him via PM or email: [email protected]


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6. Omission of information is also known as fraud. It is wholly the responsibility of the person listing an item to describe it ACCURATELY and TRUTHFULLY.
Example: If you are selling a rifle stock that has a 9 inch crack in it you need to disclose that information to the buyer. Do not describe the item or tell the buyer that the stock has "light scratches" only.
If we determine that you defraud a member by failing to disclose facts about your items, your access to this section will be restricted and you may be permanently banned from the forum.


7. CLASSIFIED AD REQUIREMENTS
A. Briefly describe your item in the title, along with WTS, WTT or WTB.
B. We do not have any rules regarding notification of a purchase or trade in an ad...it can be accomplished via a post on the thread, a PM, an email, a phone call, a pigeon carrier, etc. However, if you set the terms of your sale, you must follow them! We do not require or enforce any conditions of purchase; however, if a member violates their own terms then they are subject to at least suspension from the Marketplace section. For example: If you say, "First 'I'll take it' gets it," and sell to someone via PM or email without updating your ad and someone posts they'll take it, that's on you. We will not be party to a dispute, but you WILL lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace as a minimum since you failed to follow your own conditions.
C. You must list a price, and make it easily visible, not just lost in the description. Ads without a price will be deleted. It is ok to list a price and OBO (or best offer); however, no auction-style listings
D. As noted in item #4, provide ALL and ACCURATE details. i.e color, size, caliber, year, make, model, condition, defects, etc
E. Post pictures, or at least the links to them. If you are unable to post pics, then make them available via e-mail.
F. List shipping, pick-up or delivery options for the buyer, as well as cost.
G. Be sure to mark your ad as "SOLD" once the items are sold.


8. Do not bump ads older than 90 days without moderator approval. Ads older than 90 days will be locked if they get bumped.


9. Do not bump an ad more than once within a 24-hour period. Ads bumped multiple times within 24 hours will be locked or deleted. Members who continually do this will have their ads locked or deleted, and will lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace.


10. Remove previous bump posts so as to keep the size of the threads to a minimum. Nobody wants to have to search through 4+ pages of "Bump" or "ttt" posts simply to find information on the item listed.
If not removed, mods will remove them and/or delete the thread if it gets out of hand.


11. If you commit to buy or sell, please contact the seller or buyer within 24 hours with a PM or email to make arrangements.


12. If an item is sold, please mark the thread as such. This will help eliminate the old threads coming back up, as well as help those looking for specific items.


13. For WTB items anywhere in the Marketplace:
- Only respond to a WTB ad if you possess the requested item or have specific knowledge of that item’s availability. For example, do not post, “Check eBay” or “Check Gunbroker.”
- Once you have found/purchased the item(s) desired, delete the thread so as to not waste other members' time and allow for other threads to have visibility.


14. Keep the classified threads clean of extraneous/fluff comments and questions, regardless of how innocent or praiseworthy. This prevents derailing the thread and generating wasteful, opinionated discussions, as well as surreptitious bumping of threads.
If you have a technical or knowledge question relating to a listed item, start a new thread or search and add to an existing thread.
If you want to thank or praise a seller or item, DON'T do it in the sale thread as it unnecessarily bumps a stale thread, and said comments will be deleted. Instead, do the person the courtesy of posting in the Buyer/Seller Feedback section here:


Basically, if you don't have a question DIRECTLY related to a sale/trade/purchase of a specific thread, don't post! And this particularly applies to stomping a member’s ad concerning their asking price as there is a tendency to post negative replies when someone lists an item for sale that others consider overpriced.
We will not tolerate members stomping another member's ad concerning their asking price.
This also includes posting low-ball offers. If you want to make an offer lower than the asking price, even if it states OBO, do it via PM or email.
If an item is sold and the listing member deleted the price (which is their prerogative) and you want to know what the price was, do NOT post in the thread…send the member a PM.

Those who continually stomp or hijack other member's ads will face temporary, and even permanent suspension of their forum privileges.


15. No duplicate or multiple threads in different sections for the same item. Pick one section, the most applicable, and post there. Additional duplicate threads will be deleted.


16. You may not use the signature block function to solicit purchases, trades and/or sales. That is why we have the Marketplace...post a thread with your specific WTB, WTS, WTT ad.
You may have up to two lines stating you are looking or searching for a particular rifle/weapon and serial number.
As with individual posts, signature blocks/lines are subject to the same forum rules and will be handled accordingly if they violate any forum rules, policies/procedures or take up too much room of a post.


OTHER TIPS/GUIDELINES
- Buyers and Sellers should verify each other’s identity before sending money and/or products. If possible, get each other’s phone number and have a quick conversation to confirm the transaction details.
- As a suggestion: sellers should consider using delivery confirmation to avoid conflicts from buyers; saying they never received the products.
- Buyers, get to know the seller a little before you blindly send cash. If something does not seem right; it probably isn't. If something seems too good to be true; it probably is. Contact a moderator or report a thread/post that appears to be a scam.
- Respect fellow members. This section is a great place to support/help out fellow members and occasionally make new friends. Please be respectful to your fellow members. Maybe try selling here to a member instead of eBay, maybe save them a buck or two. If you have any questions, problems or concerns feel free to contact a moderator or admin.
- We do not require members to keep ads, or keep a listing price in the thread. It is your ad, so you are free to delete it at your discretion, as well as remove the asking price if you so desire. If someone is curious about the price for what an item sold, contact the seller via PM…do NOT post in thread.
- Lastly, don't forget the <b>Buyer/Seller Feedback section</b>

Be sure to express a good or bad experience with your buyer or seller, and let others know what to expect. Also be sure to check there for a member if you are concerned BEFORE you buy.


MODERATION RULES/ENFORCEMENT
1. All spammers get banned instantly and permanently.
2. Inappropriate or out of hand threads shall be closed with or without reason posted for the closure or deleted at the discretion of the Mods/Admins.
3. If you cannot follow the rules set forth, your posts may be deleted, removed, or edited by the Moderators.
4. If you repeatedly do not follow the rules set forth, you will be banned from this section or from the CMP Forum for any length of time from 2 days to permanently, at the discretion of the Moderators.

NOTE: These rules can change at any time. Administrators and Moderators have the right to make any decision that fits the website and its users.


DISCLAIMER
The CMP, any of its staff and forum administrators/moderators assume NO liability or responsibility for Marketplace transactions. Members will use at their own risk, and CMP will not be responsible for any disputes or claims between members involving a transaction.
The Civilian Marksmanship Program forum is intended primarily to be a technically-oriented website for professional, courteous, and intellectual discussion of CMP matches, activities, firearms and related events. We are an online community founded by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts, of all ages and walks of life. Remember that we have youth CMP participants who view this site. Please enjoy your stay and with your help, we can make the CMP Forums safe for all.


The opinions and posts on this site do not necessarily reflect those of The Civilian Marksmanship Program.


If you have any questions, please contact a Moderator

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Anybody loading .257 Roberts?

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  • Anybody loading .257 Roberts?

    I am trying to get an accurate load with 120 grain hunting bullets for my Winchester model 70 Featherweight, 1in10 twist. The stock has been glass bedded and barrel is free floating. It's chambered in .257 Ackley Improved with the 40 degree shoulder. I've been trying several different powders/weights using the ladder method. I'm using a Caldwell lead sled on a very solid bench @ 100 yds. I do (5) 5 round groups from min. to max with each combo. I can get some good groups except there's always 1 or 2 outliers and theres no repeat consistency. Brass is Nosler custom competition, match prepared and weight sorted. CCI 200 LR primers. In researching these issues I came across Miller's Twist Rate Calculator and It shows 1in10 is too slow to stabilize longer heavier bullets in .257. Whats irritating is most reloading manuals show different min/max, and limited powders tested in the heavier bullets. Some are .257 Roberts, .257 +P, and only 2 show the 40 degree AI. Theres no consistency between sources, and the Lee manual lists starting loads way lower than anyone else to the point where I'm worried there could be a pressure spike. They all have more info as the bullets get lighter. I'm set on using 120s so there's very few recipes out there.

    Can you share your favorite .257 bob load with heavier bullets, and also your twist rate.

    I finally got in some Speer 120gn BTSPs that are shorter than all the rest (after waiting 18 mo.) so I'm ready to start testing again with these. I would really like to use a temperature stabilized powder. I test in warmer weather but hunt in cold temps. My go to powder is H4831SC, RL19 is listed as most accurate but is not temp stable.

    This is my favorite rifle and I'm going to make it work one way or another. A 1in 9 re-barrel is my last resort ($800 +).
    Last edited by mycanoe45; 03-24-2023, 02:50 PM.
    Former mycanoe44. Long time account was hacked and deleted. Advanced search for mycanoe44 will show my history and A+++ rating on the buy and sell forum.

  • #2
    I shoot an FN Deluxe Mauser that has a factory 1-10 twist barrel. My best 120 gr load is with Nosler Partition's and 43gr of IMR 4350. I get 1" group with this load. Of course start low and work up your loads. Hope this helps.

    Comment


    • #3
      Your particular rifle may not do well with the heaviest bullets, that could certainly be the case with any candidate rifle. What velocities are you chronographing ?

      Most of the hundreds of thousands of the standard 1:10 twist 257Roberts shoot sub-moa with 117/120gr bullets, from what I can tell.
      People have posted that the 1:12 oddball rifles out there, do have a bullet weight max of ~100gr.

      I have read others' claims that the theoretical twist calculators are conservative in this respect.

      Just yesterday I read a post where a shooter was thinking that he saw the beginnings of instability at 800 yards (!) w/ a 117gr HP-BT from a 1:10, 257Roberts.
      I can see your concern if you will be taking your Roberts to 1000 yds.

      People are talking about 1:7.5 to 1:9 for the new ~135 gr specialty bullet out there (can't recall the mfr),
      and/or if the big bullet makers apply their 6.5mm VLD development to the 257 bore.

      Edit: If it really is a stability issue, how about Reloader26 which should get you an additional ~100 fps or so.
      Last edited by Kestrel4k; 03-24-2023, 04:25 PM.
      Kestrel4k feedback thread

      Comment


      • #4
        1-10 twist is marginal for long bullets in the .25. My 25-06 shot the long bullets fine at 7000 feet in Colorado, but when I moved to sea level and denser air, accuracy with the 120s went away. I'm now shooting 105s.

        The only powders I have had good luck with are IMR 4350 and RL-22. Full charge loads right up to the base of the bullet and magnum primers.

        Your results may vary.
        NRA-certified rifle (48 years), pistol, home firearms safety, and personal protection instructor
        NRA-certified range safety officer
        North Dakota and Maryland certified hunter safety instructor
        ACEP-certified coach

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kestrel4k View Post
          Your particular rifle may not do well with the heaviest bullets, that could certainly be the case with any candidate rifle. What velocities are you chronographing ?

          I have read others' claims that the theoretical twist calculators are conservative in this respect.

          Edit: If it really is a stability issue, how about Reloader26 which should get you an additional ~100 fps or so.
          Yes, opinions vary on the usefulness of the twist rate calculators.

          Funny thing is, some of my better groups were middle of the road loads. I had some old Speer 100gn flat base soft points and old H380 I wanted to get rid of, that I used to fire forming brass. I just used minimum loads and they grouped really nice.

          It may just be the rifle. It’s an early eighty’s push feed model 70 and they can be hit or miss on accuracy. I’ve known guys that never could get them to shoot and others that are tack drivers.
          Former mycanoe44. Long time account was hacked and deleted. Advanced search for mycanoe44 will show my history and A+++ rating on the buy and sell forum.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rcolarco View Post
            1-10 twist is marginal for long bullets in the .25. My 25-06 shot the long bullets fine at 7000 feet in Colorado, but when I moved to sea level and denser air, accuracy with the 120s went away. I'm now shooting 105s.

            The only powders I have had good luck with are IMR 4350 and RL-22. Full charge loads right up to the base of the bullet and magnum primers.

            Your results may vary.
            Sounds like IMR has a new Enduron temp stable replacement for 4350. The RL22 looks interesting. I have some RL19 that I had some issues loading in the summer and shooting in cold weather (flattened primers)
            Former mycanoe44. Long time account was hacked and deleted. Advanced search for mycanoe44 will show my history and A+++ rating on the buy and sell forum.

            Comment


            • #7
              Measured my actual barrel twist. It’s 1 in 10.5
              Former mycanoe44. Long time account was hacked and deleted. Advanced search for mycanoe44 will show my history and A+++ rating on the buy and sell forum.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mycanoe45 View Post
                Measured my actual barrel twist. It’s 1 in 10.5
                That is enough of a difference to matter.
                NRA-certified rifle (48 years), pistol, home firearms safety, and personal protection instructor
                NRA-certified range safety officer
                North Dakota and Maryland certified hunter safety instructor
                ACEP-certified coach

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mycanoe45 View Post
                  Yes, opinions vary on the usefulness of the twist rate calculators.
                  The calculators are useful, but just as a guide. I spent years modeling weapon behavior and effectiveness for a living. I quickly learned, when the model and reality disagree, believe reality.
                  NRA-certified rifle (48 years), pistol, home firearms safety, and personal protection instructor
                  NRA-certified range safety officer
                  North Dakota and Maryland certified hunter safety instructor
                  ACEP-certified coach

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have a Ruger TS in .257 Roberts. I have only shot 100's in it with Varget as the most accurate powder.

                    I do have some 115 gr. Noslers, I need to try them out sometime.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Factory Hornady 117gn SST on left, My reload 120gn Speer BTSP ready for the range.





                      On the left are the Speer 100gn FBSP with minimum load of H380 for fire forming. I takes 2 firings to fully form the shoulder.





                      On the right are the 120s. 5 each of: 46.5gn, 47.5, 48.5, 49.5, 50.5 of H4831SC. If I get a good group, I'll zero in around that one. If its not consistent, I'll try another powder. These bullets are my last effort with this barrel. It has a few pits, one large one and the lands are not real consistent. There are areas that look like there wasn't enough material. Also I scoped it today and about 8" from the muzzle there was a lot of copper residue for 2" or so, both on the lands and in the grooves. Haven't seen that before, wondering if there's a constricted spot in that area. Some Sweets 7.62 cleaned it all out. The crown looks good. It really reminds me of a 3 MOA wartime production M1 bore, not the greatest but good enough for minute of man.
                      Former mycanoe44. Long time account was hacked and deleted. Advanced search for mycanoe44 will show my history and A+++ rating on the buy and sell forum.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just my 2 cents for what its worth.
                        Your two random fliers are key to what's going on. If it was a twist rate issue, you would have patterns, and not groups with 1-2 random fliers.
                        I suggest you look at your COL. Your typical die set won't give you very consistent seating depth. Measure your cartridges and look for the long ones. See if they produce your fliers.
                        Many years ago, I was getting very good groups out of some cheap Remington bullets and then switched over to Noslers and my groups opened up a lot. It was because of the bullet ogive was too close to the rifling.
                        Play with this a bit and see if this resolves your problem. It worked for me.

                        GM

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If twist rate is marginal (and it is), random fliers are very common.
                          NRA-certified rifle (48 years), pistol, home firearms safety, and personal protection instructor
                          NRA-certified range safety officer
                          North Dakota and Maryland certified hunter safety instructor
                          ACEP-certified coach

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There was a wildcat cartridge based on the .257 Roberts.

                            Following WW II a lot of 6.5mm Japanese Type 38 Arisaka rifles were brought home by servicemen. Since ammo for them was not readily available in the US at the time, a popular sporterization operation was to recut the chamber to the .257 Roberts case dimensions. Since the barrel was still the larger 6.5 mm, the case was necked up to take 6.5mm bullets.

                            The resulting cartridge was called the "Jap Roberts". Some of the older reloading manuals had load recipes for it.

                            While it isn't a popular conversion today, it is something to check for when considering buying or shooting a Type 38 Arisaka.

                            Comment

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