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Do not have vintage sniper rifle yet but have a great, crisp Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X with a fine crosshair. Is it legal for VSM? Only on US rifle? Must use Stith mounts? Thanks.
Rules -PLEASE READ!
Forum rules can be found here:
Added rules:
* No flaming or insulting of other members. You will get one warning via a private message. Repeat offenses will result in being banned. (We are quite serious about this folks).
* Vendor bashing will not be tolerated. You will get one warning via a private message. Repeat offenses will result in being banned.
* When posting, try to use descriptive titles for your threads to enhance the searchability of the site. Thread titles such as "Help Me" or "Dang this sucks" should NOT be used. Instead try titles like 'Need Help with Sights', 'How to Perform Stock Refinish', or 'Vibration in Handguard". This will help other people search the site with better accuracy and make it easier for people to help you out.
* Everyone has a personal opinion and they will often differ from others. If you get into an argument over something, debate the issue, not the member. If you feel the need to get into a heated discussion with someone, send them a private message. Personal debates on the forum will not be tolerated.
* Do NOT post copyrighted material on this Forum without consent of the author. This could be from another website, or a book that you personally own. The owner/Admins of this site will not be held liable for any copyright infringement of this type, and as such, will prevent (to the best of our ability) it's posting in public. This is for the protection of ALL members.
* Do NOT post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violate any laws. These types of messages will not be tolerated. You will get one warning via a private message. Serious offenses may result in immediate permanent suspension. Repeat offenses will result in being permanently suspended.
* Avoid thread hi-jacking. Moderators will be looking for this and will more than likely split the topic if it gets too drastic, as well as take appropriate action where deemed necessary, to include deleting posts and/or enforcement action.
Please do not post the same question or post across multiple forums, or in the same thread. The best way to get the answers you are searching for is to post a clear single question in the appropriate forum and be patient, Replies will come. If you are in a hurry for a particular answer try using the search button or reading through replies to similar questions. It may just contain the information that you need. No need to post the same information again and again as this just clogs up threads/sub-forums.
Do not bump non-Marketplace threads as that can clutter the front page of a discussion forum. Posts bumping discussion threads will be deleted.
* Any members advertising their wares on the site without expressed permission will get banned. Personal items for sale in the classifieds are ok as long as the meet the criteria laid out in the site rules.
* Do not post any info, posts or threads regarding the process of going to the estore and artificially placing a large number of items in your cart simply for the purpose of seeing what inventory remains of an item carried on the estore!
This activity slows down the estore and can cause problems with it crashing, errors with people's orders, and inventory errors, particularly during periods of high demand/traffic.
Anyone making such posts on the forum will be warned once, then have their forum privileges suspended at least temporarily for a second violation. Further violations can result in permanent suspension.
* There will be no posting of links to, or copying information from listings on outside auctions/commercial sites, i.e. -- Gunbroker, Ebay, Armslist, Craigslist, Reddit, gun trader sites, etc, that are still active/live. We will not provide a platform for members to promote said auctions as there is no viable way to determine whether they or someone they know has a stake in the auction. Posts with this information will be removed. Continual violations will result in suspension of forum privileges. You may link to closed/completed auctions in the sake of education and learning.
* Users who post fake information, i.e. - name, location, in their profile, or otherwise provide/post false information/data about themselves will be instantly banned. Users who register multiple usernames will also be removed.
* Your account may be revoked at any time for any reason.
Generally, the following enforcement policy will apply:
1st offense - warning
2nd offense - banned for one week to six month
3rd offense - banned for one year
4th offense - banned permanently
** Depending on the nature of the offense/rule violation, first offense can result in ANY of the above enforcement actions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADDITIONAL RULES, TO INCLUDE MARKETPLACE/CLASSIFIED AD RULES:
1. Profile Requirements
To start a sale, buy or trade thread anywhere in the Marketplace, your Profile must contain:
A. Your FIRST and LAST name as well as your STATE of residence. Your profile privacy settings must be set to at least allow registered users the ability to view your profile info, i.e. - Not set to "Friends only."
B. You must "enable receive email and PM’s" in your Control panel if you intend to buy or sell.
Additionally, you must have a valid email address listed in your registration profile (which can only be viewed by moderators/admin in the vBulletin master page).
Users with obvious fake names, or using false names in their profile will be permanently removed from the forum without warning.
PLEASE NOTE: When a member has failed to put their full names and location in their profile, their ads will be deleted WITHOUT NOTICE. You are responsible enough to be involved in firearm activity, so you can be responsible enough to read and understand the forum rules. The posted rules ARE your notice as they are posted throughout the forum. Threads/ads will be restored once a member has updated their profile with first and last name, and state.
2. The Marketplace is intended SOLELY for the mutual benefit of forum members as a resource to support each other's collecting and/or shooting goals.
It is NOT intended for, and will NOT be used by members as a repeated, for-profit venture/operation. This includes:
A. Purchasing items from members on the forum, then posting them for sale at a markup/profit on other commercial sites, i.e. – eBay, Gunbroker, etc.
B. Reselling items at a considerable markup that were recently purchased from CMP.
Members found to have clearly abused this policy will lose the ability to post in and use the Marketplace, and potentially have their forum privileges suspended, temporarily or permanently.
3. You may only list personally owned items, and/or request/WTB items for yourself. “Selling (or buying) this for a friend/family member” ads, and 3rd-party sales/purchases are prohibited.
Additionally, NO posting or linking to listings on eBay, Craigslist, Gunbroker, Reddit, or other outside auction/commercial sites. We will not have the items placed here also. List your product here, try to sell it here, then take it to eBay, Craigslist, Gunbroker, auction-arms, etc.
4. There will be no “auction style” selling here…If you post an item for sale and it says anything like "I will take the highest offer" it will be removed.
We ask that you list your item on just one forum, so there is not confusion and/or issues with an item being sold on another forum when someone attempts to purchase it here. If you do list and sell on another forum, it is your responsibility to immediately update your ad on our forum…if you do not, your privilege to post in the Marketplace and even the forum itself may be suspended, at least temporarily.
NOTE REGARDING 1911 PISTOLS PURCHASED FROM CMP:
If you are considering selling a 1911/1911A1 you acquired directly from CMP, you MUST obtain approval from CMP1911ADMIN before listing it on the forum as purchasers of these weapons are not allowed to resell them as a condition of the purchase. You may reach him via PM or email: [email protected]
5. Vendors (or people selling large quantities of the same item as part of a commercial venture) must first contact a moderator or admin.
6. Omission of information is also known as fraud. It is wholly the responsibility of the person listing an item to describe it ACCURATELY and TRUTHFULLY.
Example: If you are selling a rifle stock that has a 9 inch crack in it you need to disclose that information to the buyer. Do not describe the item or tell the buyer that the stock has "light scratches" only.
If we determine that you defraud a member by failing to disclose facts about your items, your access to this section will be restricted and you may be permanently banned from the forum.
7. CLASSIFIED AD REQUIREMENTS
A. Briefly describe your item in the title, along with WTS, WTT or WTB.
B. We do not have any rules regarding notification of a purchase or trade in an ad...it can be accomplished via a post on the thread, a PM, an email, a phone call, a pigeon carrier, etc. However, if you set the terms of your sale, you must follow them! We do not require or enforce any conditions of purchase; however, if a member violates their own terms then they are subject to at least suspension from the Marketplace section. For example: If you say, "First 'I'll take it' gets it," and sell to someone via PM or email without updating your ad and someone posts they'll take it, that's on you. We will not be party to a dispute, but you WILL lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace as a minimum since you failed to follow your own conditions.
C. You must list a price, and make it easily visible, not just lost in the description. Ads without a price will be deleted. It is ok to list a price and OBO (or best offer); however, no auction-style listings
D. As noted in item #4, provide ALL and ACCURATE details. i.e color, size, caliber, year, make, model, condition, defects, etc
E. Post pictures, or at least the links to them. If you are unable to post pics, then make them available via e-mail.
F. List shipping, pick-up or delivery options for the buyer, as well as cost.
G. Be sure to mark your ad as "SOLD" once the items are sold.
8. Do not bump ads older than 90 days without moderator approval. Ads older than 90 days will be locked if they get bumped.
9. Do not bump an ad more than once within a 24-hour period. Ads bumped multiple times within 24 hours will be locked or deleted. Members who continually do this will have their ads locked or deleted, and will lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace.
10. Remove previous bump posts so as to keep the size of the threads to a minimum. Nobody wants to have to search through 4+ pages of "Bump" or "ttt" posts simply to find information on the item listed.
If not removed, mods will remove them and/or delete the thread if it gets out of hand.
11. If you commit to buy or sell, please contact the seller or buyer within 24 hours with a PM or email to make arrangements.
12. If an item is sold, please mark the thread as such. This will help eliminate the old threads coming back up, as well as help those looking for specific items.
13. For WTB items anywhere in the Marketplace:
- Only respond to a WTB ad if you possess the requested item or have specific knowledge of that item’s availability. For example, do not post, “Check eBay” or “Check Gunbroker.”
- Once you have found/purchased the item(s) desired, delete the thread so as to not waste other members' time and allow for other threads to have visibility.
14. Keep the classified threads clean of extraneous/fluff comments and questions, regardless of how innocent or praiseworthy. This prevents derailing the thread and generating wasteful, opinionated discussions, as well as surreptitious bumping of threads.
If you have a technical or knowledge question relating to a listed item, start a new thread or search and add to an existing thread.
If you want to thank or praise a seller or item, DON'T do it in the sale thread as it unnecessarily bumps a stale thread, and said comments will be deleted. Instead, do the person the courtesy of posting in the Buyer/Seller Feedback section here:
Basically, if you don't have a question DIRECTLY related to a sale/trade/purchase of a specific thread, don't post! And this particularly applies to stomping a member’s ad concerning their asking price as there is a tendency to post negative replies when someone lists an item for sale that others consider overpriced.
We will not tolerate members stomping another member's ad concerning their asking price.
This also includes posting low-ball offers. If you want to make an offer lower than the asking price, even if it states OBO, do it via PM or email.
If an item is sold and the listing member deleted the price (which is their prerogative) and you want to know what the price was, do NOT post in the thread…send the member a PM.
Those who continually stomp or hijack other member's ads will face temporary, and even permanent suspension of their forum privileges.
15. No duplicate or multiple threads in different sections for the same item. Pick one section, the most applicable, and post there. Additional duplicate threads will be deleted.
16. You may not use the signature block function to solicit purchases, trades and/or sales. That is why we have the Marketplace...post a thread with your specific WTB, WTS, WTT ad.
You may have up to two lines stating you are looking or searching for a particular rifle/weapon and serial number.
As with individual posts, signature blocks/lines are subject to the same forum rules and will be handled accordingly if they violate any forum rules, policies/procedures or take up too much room of a post.
OTHER TIPS/GUIDELINES
- Buyers and Sellers should verify each other’s identity before sending money and/or products. If possible, get each other’s phone number and have a quick conversation to confirm the transaction details.
- As a suggestion: sellers should consider using delivery confirmation to avoid conflicts from buyers; saying they never received the products.
- Buyers, get to know the seller a little before you blindly send cash. If something does not seem right; it probably isn't. If something seems too good to be true; it probably is. Contact a moderator or report a thread/post that appears to be a scam.
- Respect fellow members. This section is a great place to support/help out fellow members and occasionally make new friends. Please be respectful to your fellow members. Maybe try selling here to a member instead of eBay, maybe save them a buck or two. If you have any questions, problems or concerns feel free to contact a moderator or admin.
- We do not require members to keep ads, or keep a listing price in the thread. It is your ad, so you are free to delete it at your discretion, as well as remove the asking price if you so desire. If someone is curious about the price for what an item sold, contact the seller via PM…do NOT post in thread.
- Lastly, don't forget the <b>Buyer/Seller Feedback section</b>
Be sure to express a good or bad experience with your buyer or seller, and let others know what to expect. Also be sure to check there for a member if you are concerned BEFORE you buy.
MODERATION RULES/ENFORCEMENT
1. All spammers get banned instantly and permanently.
2. Inappropriate or out of hand threads shall be closed with or without reason posted for the closure or deleted at the discretion of the Mods/Admins.
3. If you cannot follow the rules set forth, your posts may be deleted, removed, or edited by the Moderators.
4. If you repeatedly do not follow the rules set forth, you will be banned from this section or from the CMP Forum for any length of time from 2 days to permanently, at the discretion of the Moderators.
NOTE: These rules can change at any time. Administrators and Moderators have the right to make any decision that fits the website and its users.
DISCLAIMER
The CMP, any of its staff and forum administrators/moderators assume NO liability or responsibility for Marketplace transactions. Members will use at their own risk, and CMP will not be responsible for any disputes or claims between members involving a transaction.
The Civilian Marksmanship Program forum is intended primarily to be a technically-oriented website for professional, courteous, and intellectual discussion of CMP matches, activities, firearms and related events. We are an online community founded by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts, of all ages and walks of life. Remember that we have youth CMP participants who view this site. Please enjoy your stay and with your help, we can make the CMP Forums safe for all.
The opinions and posts on this site do not necessarily reflect those of The Civilian Marksmanship Program.
If you have any questions, please contact a Moderator
CMP Staff
Added rules:
* No flaming or insulting of other members. You will get one warning via a private message. Repeat offenses will result in being banned. (We are quite serious about this folks).
* Vendor bashing will not be tolerated. You will get one warning via a private message. Repeat offenses will result in being banned.
* When posting, try to use descriptive titles for your threads to enhance the searchability of the site. Thread titles such as "Help Me" or "Dang this sucks" should NOT be used. Instead try titles like 'Need Help with Sights', 'How to Perform Stock Refinish', or 'Vibration in Handguard". This will help other people search the site with better accuracy and make it easier for people to help you out.
* Everyone has a personal opinion and they will often differ from others. If you get into an argument over something, debate the issue, not the member. If you feel the need to get into a heated discussion with someone, send them a private message. Personal debates on the forum will not be tolerated.
* Do NOT post copyrighted material on this Forum without consent of the author. This could be from another website, or a book that you personally own. The owner/Admins of this site will not be held liable for any copyright infringement of this type, and as such, will prevent (to the best of our ability) it's posting in public. This is for the protection of ALL members.
* Do NOT post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violate any laws. These types of messages will not be tolerated. You will get one warning via a private message. Serious offenses may result in immediate permanent suspension. Repeat offenses will result in being permanently suspended.
* Avoid thread hi-jacking. Moderators will be looking for this and will more than likely split the topic if it gets too drastic, as well as take appropriate action where deemed necessary, to include deleting posts and/or enforcement action.
Please do not post the same question or post across multiple forums, or in the same thread. The best way to get the answers you are searching for is to post a clear single question in the appropriate forum and be patient, Replies will come. If you are in a hurry for a particular answer try using the search button or reading through replies to similar questions. It may just contain the information that you need. No need to post the same information again and again as this just clogs up threads/sub-forums.
Do not bump non-Marketplace threads as that can clutter the front page of a discussion forum. Posts bumping discussion threads will be deleted.
* Any members advertising their wares on the site without expressed permission will get banned. Personal items for sale in the classifieds are ok as long as the meet the criteria laid out in the site rules.
* Do not post any info, posts or threads regarding the process of going to the estore and artificially placing a large number of items in your cart simply for the purpose of seeing what inventory remains of an item carried on the estore!
This activity slows down the estore and can cause problems with it crashing, errors with people's orders, and inventory errors, particularly during periods of high demand/traffic.
Anyone making such posts on the forum will be warned once, then have their forum privileges suspended at least temporarily for a second violation. Further violations can result in permanent suspension.
* There will be no posting of links to, or copying information from listings on outside auctions/commercial sites, i.e. -- Gunbroker, Ebay, Armslist, Craigslist, Reddit, gun trader sites, etc, that are still active/live. We will not provide a platform for members to promote said auctions as there is no viable way to determine whether they or someone they know has a stake in the auction. Posts with this information will be removed. Continual violations will result in suspension of forum privileges. You may link to closed/completed auctions in the sake of education and learning.
* Users who post fake information, i.e. - name, location, in their profile, or otherwise provide/post false information/data about themselves will be instantly banned. Users who register multiple usernames will also be removed.
* Your account may be revoked at any time for any reason.
Generally, the following enforcement policy will apply:
1st offense - warning
2nd offense - banned for one week to six month
3rd offense - banned for one year
4th offense - banned permanently
** Depending on the nature of the offense/rule violation, first offense can result in ANY of the above enforcement actions.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADDITIONAL RULES, TO INCLUDE MARKETPLACE/CLASSIFIED AD RULES:
1. Profile Requirements
To start a sale, buy or trade thread anywhere in the Marketplace, your Profile must contain:
A. Your FIRST and LAST name as well as your STATE of residence. Your profile privacy settings must be set to at least allow registered users the ability to view your profile info, i.e. - Not set to "Friends only."
B. You must "enable receive email and PM’s" in your Control panel if you intend to buy or sell.
Additionally, you must have a valid email address listed in your registration profile (which can only be viewed by moderators/admin in the vBulletin master page).
Users with obvious fake names, or using false names in their profile will be permanently removed from the forum without warning.
PLEASE NOTE: When a member has failed to put their full names and location in their profile, their ads will be deleted WITHOUT NOTICE. You are responsible enough to be involved in firearm activity, so you can be responsible enough to read and understand the forum rules. The posted rules ARE your notice as they are posted throughout the forum. Threads/ads will be restored once a member has updated their profile with first and last name, and state.
2. The Marketplace is intended SOLELY for the mutual benefit of forum members as a resource to support each other's collecting and/or shooting goals.
It is NOT intended for, and will NOT be used by members as a repeated, for-profit venture/operation. This includes:
A. Purchasing items from members on the forum, then posting them for sale at a markup/profit on other commercial sites, i.e. – eBay, Gunbroker, etc.
B. Reselling items at a considerable markup that were recently purchased from CMP.
Members found to have clearly abused this policy will lose the ability to post in and use the Marketplace, and potentially have their forum privileges suspended, temporarily or permanently.
3. You may only list personally owned items, and/or request/WTB items for yourself. “Selling (or buying) this for a friend/family member” ads, and 3rd-party sales/purchases are prohibited.
Additionally, NO posting or linking to listings on eBay, Craigslist, Gunbroker, Reddit, or other outside auction/commercial sites. We will not have the items placed here also. List your product here, try to sell it here, then take it to eBay, Craigslist, Gunbroker, auction-arms, etc.
4. There will be no “auction style” selling here…If you post an item for sale and it says anything like "I will take the highest offer" it will be removed.
We ask that you list your item on just one forum, so there is not confusion and/or issues with an item being sold on another forum when someone attempts to purchase it here. If you do list and sell on another forum, it is your responsibility to immediately update your ad on our forum…if you do not, your privilege to post in the Marketplace and even the forum itself may be suspended, at least temporarily.
NOTE REGARDING 1911 PISTOLS PURCHASED FROM CMP:
If you are considering selling a 1911/1911A1 you acquired directly from CMP, you MUST obtain approval from CMP1911ADMIN before listing it on the forum as purchasers of these weapons are not allowed to resell them as a condition of the purchase. You may reach him via PM or email: [email protected]
5. Vendors (or people selling large quantities of the same item as part of a commercial venture) must first contact a moderator or admin.
6. Omission of information is also known as fraud. It is wholly the responsibility of the person listing an item to describe it ACCURATELY and TRUTHFULLY.
Example: If you are selling a rifle stock that has a 9 inch crack in it you need to disclose that information to the buyer. Do not describe the item or tell the buyer that the stock has "light scratches" only.
If we determine that you defraud a member by failing to disclose facts about your items, your access to this section will be restricted and you may be permanently banned from the forum.
7. CLASSIFIED AD REQUIREMENTS
A. Briefly describe your item in the title, along with WTS, WTT or WTB.
B. We do not have any rules regarding notification of a purchase or trade in an ad...it can be accomplished via a post on the thread, a PM, an email, a phone call, a pigeon carrier, etc. However, if you set the terms of your sale, you must follow them! We do not require or enforce any conditions of purchase; however, if a member violates their own terms then they are subject to at least suspension from the Marketplace section. For example: If you say, "First 'I'll take it' gets it," and sell to someone via PM or email without updating your ad and someone posts they'll take it, that's on you. We will not be party to a dispute, but you WILL lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace as a minimum since you failed to follow your own conditions.
C. You must list a price, and make it easily visible, not just lost in the description. Ads without a price will be deleted. It is ok to list a price and OBO (or best offer); however, no auction-style listings
D. As noted in item #4, provide ALL and ACCURATE details. i.e color, size, caliber, year, make, model, condition, defects, etc
E. Post pictures, or at least the links to them. If you are unable to post pics, then make them available via e-mail.
F. List shipping, pick-up or delivery options for the buyer, as well as cost.
G. Be sure to mark your ad as "SOLD" once the items are sold.
8. Do not bump ads older than 90 days without moderator approval. Ads older than 90 days will be locked if they get bumped.
9. Do not bump an ad more than once within a 24-hour period. Ads bumped multiple times within 24 hours will be locked or deleted. Members who continually do this will have their ads locked or deleted, and will lose your privilege to post in the Marketplace.
10. Remove previous bump posts so as to keep the size of the threads to a minimum. Nobody wants to have to search through 4+ pages of "Bump" or "ttt" posts simply to find information on the item listed.
If not removed, mods will remove them and/or delete the thread if it gets out of hand.
11. If you commit to buy or sell, please contact the seller or buyer within 24 hours with a PM or email to make arrangements.
12. If an item is sold, please mark the thread as such. This will help eliminate the old threads coming back up, as well as help those looking for specific items.
13. For WTB items anywhere in the Marketplace:
- Only respond to a WTB ad if you possess the requested item or have specific knowledge of that item’s availability. For example, do not post, “Check eBay” or “Check Gunbroker.”
- Once you have found/purchased the item(s) desired, delete the thread so as to not waste other members' time and allow for other threads to have visibility.
14. Keep the classified threads clean of extraneous/fluff comments and questions, regardless of how innocent or praiseworthy. This prevents derailing the thread and generating wasteful, opinionated discussions, as well as surreptitious bumping of threads.
If you have a technical or knowledge question relating to a listed item, start a new thread or search and add to an existing thread.
If you want to thank or praise a seller or item, DON'T do it in the sale thread as it unnecessarily bumps a stale thread, and said comments will be deleted. Instead, do the person the courtesy of posting in the Buyer/Seller Feedback section here:
Basically, if you don't have a question DIRECTLY related to a sale/trade/purchase of a specific thread, don't post! And this particularly applies to stomping a member’s ad concerning their asking price as there is a tendency to post negative replies when someone lists an item for sale that others consider overpriced.
We will not tolerate members stomping another member's ad concerning their asking price.
This also includes posting low-ball offers. If you want to make an offer lower than the asking price, even if it states OBO, do it via PM or email.
If an item is sold and the listing member deleted the price (which is their prerogative) and you want to know what the price was, do NOT post in the thread…send the member a PM.
Those who continually stomp or hijack other member's ads will face temporary, and even permanent suspension of their forum privileges.
15. No duplicate or multiple threads in different sections for the same item. Pick one section, the most applicable, and post there. Additional duplicate threads will be deleted.
16. You may not use the signature block function to solicit purchases, trades and/or sales. That is why we have the Marketplace...post a thread with your specific WTB, WTS, WTT ad.
You may have up to two lines stating you are looking or searching for a particular rifle/weapon and serial number.
As with individual posts, signature blocks/lines are subject to the same forum rules and will be handled accordingly if they violate any forum rules, policies/procedures or take up too much room of a post.
OTHER TIPS/GUIDELINES
- Buyers and Sellers should verify each other’s identity before sending money and/or products. If possible, get each other’s phone number and have a quick conversation to confirm the transaction details.
- As a suggestion: sellers should consider using delivery confirmation to avoid conflicts from buyers; saying they never received the products.
- Buyers, get to know the seller a little before you blindly send cash. If something does not seem right; it probably isn't. If something seems too good to be true; it probably is. Contact a moderator or report a thread/post that appears to be a scam.
- Respect fellow members. This section is a great place to support/help out fellow members and occasionally make new friends. Please be respectful to your fellow members. Maybe try selling here to a member instead of eBay, maybe save them a buck or two. If you have any questions, problems or concerns feel free to contact a moderator or admin.
- We do not require members to keep ads, or keep a listing price in the thread. It is your ad, so you are free to delete it at your discretion, as well as remove the asking price if you so desire. If someone is curious about the price for what an item sold, contact the seller via PM…do NOT post in thread.
- Lastly, don't forget the <b>Buyer/Seller Feedback section</b>
Be sure to express a good or bad experience with your buyer or seller, and let others know what to expect. Also be sure to check there for a member if you are concerned BEFORE you buy.
MODERATION RULES/ENFORCEMENT
1. All spammers get banned instantly and permanently.
2. Inappropriate or out of hand threads shall be closed with or without reason posted for the closure or deleted at the discretion of the Mods/Admins.
3. If you cannot follow the rules set forth, your posts may be deleted, removed, or edited by the Moderators.
4. If you repeatedly do not follow the rules set forth, you will be banned from this section or from the CMP Forum for any length of time from 2 days to permanently, at the discretion of the Moderators.
NOTE: These rules can change at any time. Administrators and Moderators have the right to make any decision that fits the website and its users.
DISCLAIMER
The CMP, any of its staff and forum administrators/moderators assume NO liability or responsibility for Marketplace transactions. Members will use at their own risk, and CMP will not be responsible for any disputes or claims between members involving a transaction.
The Civilian Marksmanship Program forum is intended primarily to be a technically-oriented website for professional, courteous, and intellectual discussion of CMP matches, activities, firearms and related events. We are an online community founded by enthusiasts, for enthusiasts, of all ages and walks of life. Remember that we have youth CMP participants who view this site. Please enjoy your stay and with your help, we can make the CMP Forums safe for all.
The opinions and posts on this site do not necessarily reflect those of The Civilian Marksmanship Program.
If you have any questions, please contact a Moderator
CMP Staff
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Rule book is online--pg 29, table 1--Legal Rifles and Scopes. Good Shooting...... -
Thanks Ceresco. Read that but still not sure about this scope!
maybe me, but not clear.Comment
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I went to an auction once specifically for a scope that, as discribed, could have been correct for a M1C. It turned out to be a Bear Cub; nice scope but not ever right for a "C". I think you are out of luck for the CMP sniper matches. Mine is on a 10/22--might make it to a CMP RF sporter match. Good Shooting.....Comment
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Thought civilian version of approved military scopes were allowed?? This would apply as Bear Cub essentially same scope as the approved Stith-Kollmorgen. Thought some military issue Kollmorgens were marked Bear Cub as well. Who knows?Comment
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Exactly how is your scope marked?
Were you planning on using it on an M1C or something else?
The USMC used Stith-Kollmorgen 4XD Scopes in a special, long Griffin and Howe Double Lever Side Mount (the scope and mount combination was designated MC-1) on their MC M1952 Sniper's Rifle. (Basically the USMC adaptation of the M1C).
Scopes that are just marked "Kollmorgen" may have been made too late (1956-1959) to qualify under the rules.
Regards,
JimComment
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Marked Kollmorgen Optical Corp, Northhampton, Mass. Bear Cub. 4X Ser # 237xx. Looks just like ones I have seen in pix of M1C.Comment
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Well the rules state the "Stith-Kollmorgen 4X" is an approved non issued scope for the M1C and M1D. This may be all you need.
What would concern me more is whether or not your scope would fit an M1C or M1D.
It should certainly fit a USMC MC1 Mount (the longer Griffin and Howe w/26MM rings) since the mount and scope were designed to work together.
Original M1C and M1D mounts were designed to work with 7/8" (22mm) Diameter tubes.
G&H still sells the M1 mount with !" rings. I don't know if you could squeeze a 26mm scope into 1" rings.
Assuming you want to mount this scope on an M1C i also would want some assurance that the scope will fit lengthwise with proper eye relief. Again the USMC made their mount longer than the standard M1C possibly to account for the fact that the Bear CUb is a longer scope than the Alaskan and eliminate any interference with the w/E turrets.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
JimLast edited by jgaynor; 08-19-2011, 01:13 AM.Comment
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Jim--The rules say STITH-KOLLMORGEN. The Bear Cub does not have the word "Stith" on it and is, in fact, a different scope. All those companies made a variety of products. BTW: I have looked at the common commercial M1D mount and it does not appear to have enough stock to allow reaming for a 1" scope. There are GI 1" M1D mounts, (for the Weaver K scope) but they are rare. Also BTW: The Lyman Alaskan is actually about 1/4" longer than my Bear Cub, turrets, diameter and mounting arrangements totally different..... Good Shooting.....Last edited by ceresco; 08-19-2011, 09:09 AM.Comment
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The rules, under M1C and M1D actually state : "Non-Issue: Stith-Kollmorgen 4X, Lyman Alaskan"
The main difference between the Military (USMC) Stith-Kollmorgen Scope and the commercial Stith 4xD Bearcub is in the size and style of the adjustment knobs and the markings.
CMP has approved non-conforming scopes in the past such as the Weaver 330S as a substitute for the 330C (M73B1).
They have also approved reproduction scopes which are reputedly optically superior to the originals due to enhanced coating, nitrogen charging etc.
My only points here are that the presence of a combination on the list is no guarantee that it will fit or work; and that if a combination is to be excluded the exclusion should be because it offers a competitor a material, unfair advantage over others.
So bottom line is a commercial Mid-50s 4XD Bearcub a substantially more effective than the military model?
Regards,
JimComment
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I think we are talking about 3 different scopes here?
Joe,
If it helps… I have a civilian Stith-Kollmorgen 4x scope. It has a 26mm tube and is as Jim describes. It has Stith-Kollmorgen printed on the rear bell and does not say Bear Cub on it. It IS the civilian version of the Marine Stith-Kollmorgen. I believe this is the legal one?
The difference is in the large adjustment knobs on the Marine version compared to the standard covered adjustment “dials”? on the civilian one. The other MAJOR difference… The civilian Stith-Kollmorgen compared to the Kollmorgen Bear cub is about $50-$100 more for the Stith-Kollmorgen on the auction sites.
Now the difference, as you may already know, between the Civilian Stith-Kollmorgen vs. the Marine Stith-Kollmorgen is about $1500-$2000, maybe more?
Kollmorgen Bear Cub = ~$80-120
Stith-Kollmorgen = ~100-$250
Stith-Kollmorgen Marine = $1500-3000????
Notice in the pics below…
The Stith-Kollmorgen Marine has the large external adjustment knobs, both scopes have the adjustment knobs/dials about ½ to 1 inch forward of a “newer” Kollmorgen Bear Cub.
Marine:
Civilian (my scope):
I also have a Redfield (who bought the optics division of Kollmorgen) Bear Cub that will not even fit the M1C I have pictured. By the way, the 1" tube DOES fit the 26mm rings... the rear bell will Not clear the M1 rear site however!Comment
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We make an MC-1 repo mount that has slightly higher rings to help clear the rear bell of modern scopes...
http://www.tarheelordnance.com
Garand Gas Cylinders and other USGI items
Home of the THO USMC MC-1 Garand scope mount!Comment
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