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Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X VSM legal?

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  • Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X VSM legal?

    Do not have vintage sniper rifle yet but have a great, crisp Kollmorgen Bear Cub 4X with a fine crosshair. Is it legal for VSM? Only on US rifle? Must use Stith mounts? Thanks.

  • #2
    Rule book is online--pg 29, table 1--Legal Rifles and Scopes. Good Shooting......


    • #3
      Thanks Ceresco. Read that but still not sure about this scope!
      maybe me, but not clear.


      • #4
        I went to an auction once specifically for a scope that, as discribed, could have been correct for a M1C. It turned out to be a Bear Cub; nice scope but not ever right for a "C". I think you are out of luck for the CMP sniper matches. Mine is on a 10/22--might make it to a CMP RF sporter match. Good Shooting.....


        • #5
          Thought civilian version of approved military scopes were allowed?? This would apply as Bear Cub essentially same scope as the approved Stith-Kollmorgen. Thought some military issue Kollmorgens were marked Bear Cub as well. Who knows?


          • #6
            Exactly how is your scope marked?

            Were you planning on using it on an M1C or something else?

            The USMC used Stith-Kollmorgen 4XD Scopes in a special, long Griffin and Howe Double Lever Side Mount (the scope and mount combination was designated MC-1) on their MC M1952 Sniper's Rifle. (Basically the USMC adaptation of the M1C).

            Scopes that are just marked "Kollmorgen" may have been made too late (1956-1959) to qualify under the rules.


            Last edited by jgaynor; 08-18-2011, 01:25 PM. Reason: added question


            • #7
              Marked Kollmorgen Optical Corp, Northhampton, Mass. Bear Cub. 4X Ser # 237xx. Looks just like ones I have seen in pix of M1C.


              • #8
                Well the rules state the "Stith-Kollmorgen 4X" is an approved non issued scope for the M1C and M1D. This may be all you need.
                What would concern me more is whether or not your scope would fit an M1C or M1D.

                It should certainly fit a USMC MC1 Mount (the longer Griffin and Howe w/26MM rings) since the mount and scope were designed to work together.

                Original M1C and M1D mounts were designed to work with 7/8" (22mm) Diameter tubes.
                G&H still sells the M1 mount with !" rings. I don't know if you could squeeze a 26mm scope into 1" rings.

                Assuming you want to mount this scope on an M1C i also would want some assurance that the scope will fit lengthwise with proper eye relief. Again the USMC made their mount longer than the standard M1C possibly to account for the fact that the Bear CUb is a longer scope than the Alaskan and eliminate any interference with the w/E turrets.

                I hope this helps.


                Last edited by jgaynor; 08-19-2011, 01:13 AM.


                • #9
                  Jim--The rules say STITH-KOLLMORGEN. The Bear Cub does not have the word "Stith" on it and is, in fact, a different scope. All those companies made a variety of products. BTW: I have looked at the common commercial M1D mount and it does not appear to have enough stock to allow reaming for a 1" scope. There are GI 1" M1D mounts, (for the Weaver K scope) but they are rare. Also BTW: The Lyman Alaskan is actually about 1/4" longer than my Bear Cub, turrets, diameter and mounting arrangements totally different..... Good Shooting.....
                  Last edited by ceresco; 08-19-2011, 09:09 AM.


                  • #10
                    The rules, under M1C and M1D actually state : "Non-Issue: Stith-Kollmorgen 4X, Lyman Alaskan"

                    The main difference between the Military (USMC) Stith-Kollmorgen Scope and the commercial Stith 4xD Bearcub is in the size and style of the adjustment knobs and the markings.

                    CMP has approved non-conforming scopes in the past such as the Weaver 330S as a substitute for the 330C (M73B1).

                    They have also approved reproduction scopes which are reputedly optically superior to the originals due to enhanced coating, nitrogen charging etc.

                    My only points here are that the presence of a combination on the list is no guarantee that it will fit or work; and that if a combination is to be excluded the exclusion should be because it offers a competitor a material, unfair advantage over others.

                    So bottom line is a commercial Mid-50s 4XD Bearcub a substantially more effective than the military model?



                    • #11
                      I think we are talking about 3 different scopes here?

                      If it helps… I have a civilian Stith-Kollmorgen 4x scope. It has a 26mm tube and is as Jim describes. It has Stith-Kollmorgen printed on the rear bell and does not say Bear Cub on it. It IS the civilian version of the Marine Stith-Kollmorgen. I believe this is the legal one?
                      The difference is in the large adjustment knobs on the Marine version compared to the standard covered adjustment “dials”? on the civilian one. The other MAJOR difference… The civilian Stith-Kollmorgen compared to the Kollmorgen Bear cub is about $50-$100 more for the Stith-Kollmorgen on the auction sites.

                      Now the difference, as you may already know, between the Civilian Stith-Kollmorgen vs. the Marine Stith-Kollmorgen is about $1500-$2000, maybe more?

                      Kollmorgen Bear Cub = ~$80-120
                      Stith-Kollmorgen = ~100-$250
                      Stith-Kollmorgen Marine = $1500-3000????

                      Notice in the pics below…
                      The Stith-Kollmorgen Marine has the large external adjustment knobs, both scopes have the adjustment knobs/dials about ½ to 1 inch forward of a “newer” Kollmorgen Bear Cub.


                      Civilian (my scope):

                      I also have a Redfield (who bought the optics division of Kollmorgen) Bear Cub that will not even fit the M1C I have pictured. By the way, the 1" tube DOES fit the 26mm rings... the rear bell will Not clear the M1 rear site however!


                      • #12
                        We make an MC-1 repo mount that has slightly higher rings to help clear the rear bell of modern scopes...

                        Garand Gas Cylinders and other USGI items
                        Home of the THO USMC MC-1 Garand scope mount!